Talk:Aelinor Targaryen
Originally it was thought that Aelinor was Aerys I's sister and queen, but The World Of Ice and Fire later revealed (in 2014) that she was actually born Aelinor Penrose. The prop in Season 1 was only based on the earlier assumption that she was his sister. The on-screen prop is kind of in a semi-canon state, as it wasn't really meant to be that legible on-screen and even Cogman admitted he made a few names up. Even disregarding what he said...a briefly visible prop page doesn't hold up against a later official clarification about the book continuity. So we're now going by that she was actually born Aelinor Penrose - I don't think the writers themselves thought of this as an official change, compared to when they consciously removed Jaehaerys II.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 01:58, May 14, 2015 (UTC) Compare to how a few things in Season 1 might not match up exactly with information later clarified in '"A Dance with Dragons.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 01:59, May 14, 2015 (UTC) :What "we"? Nobody has discussed this at all. WaitingForYou (talk) 02:02, May 14, 2015 (UTC) Well, we're discussing it now. Do you disagree?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 02:03, May 14, 2015 (UTC) :Glad you were open to changing your mind. There are enough problems matching the show canon from what is said in different episodes to start worrying about TWOIAF. Bryan Cogman never specifically said that Aerys I and Aelinor not being siblings as a mistake. Let's just stick with the show in "dance with the one who brought you" kind of way since the only reason there is this page in the first place is the prop? No prop, no Aelinor Targaryen because there are tons of characters in TWOIAF (let alone ASOAIF proper) that don't have pages on this wiki. The prop is more important than TWOIAF. I prefer the show version of Aelinor and Aenys being siblings anyhow (the same as Olenna's breaking off her betrothal himself or the Lannisters are broke because Casterly Rock gold mines are tapped out which TWOIAF is implicitly different). Elio & Linda have their one canon and Dan & David have another and I'm on Team Dan & Dave since it's their show. I'd vote for keeping her Aelinor Targaryen. WaitingForYou (talk) 02:16, May 14, 2015 (UTC) ...TWOIAF is more important than a prop developed in Season 1 before GRRM revised the family tree. This is simply a matter of timing. Blindly following what is written on the props would be incorrect, because even the writers never "intended" for them to be separate. ...numerous errors introduced by the prop of the lineages book are an ongoing concern, we will probably have to hash this out when we aren't up to our eyes in work from Season 5. On the To-Do list.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 03:10, May 14, 2015 (UTC) ::Just because Bryan Cogman said something else was a mistake doesn't mean that this specific thing about Aelinor is a mistake. George R.R. Martin "revisiting" or likely Elio & Linda (who have nothing to do with show) printing that Penrose stuff doesn't change what George R.R. Martin told the prop guy in Season 1 and nothing on the show or one of the writers has changed that (which was your own standard about whether or not Maege Mormont's dead). George R.R. Martin's name is just as much on the opening credits as producer on every episode as it is as "consultation with" George R.R. Martin for TWOIAF. You're setting standard that TWOIAF can't hold up to since TWOIAF got a whole bunch of things wrong (Lord Edwyle Stark's sister married a Rogers?) but doesn't mean everything in it is wrong. WaitingForYou (talk) 03:19, May 14, 2015 (UTC) :::I'd vote to consistent with the standard you gave for Maege Mormont, as it the same it was shown on-screen with her being Daeron II Targaryen's daughter and put "Is Aelinor Targaryen actually a Penrose?" on that list of questions for the writers of the show (not Elio & Linda who have previous said they don't care about show canon which is what this whole wiki is devoted to anyhow)? WaitingForYou (talk) 03:31, May 14, 2015 (UTC) 1 - The World of Ice and Fire is indeed full book canon. Yes, "book canon" doesn't necessarily have "anything to do" with TV canon. 2 - Martin himself didn't tell the prop guy anything. Cogman said he himself just put in some filler names just to fill in the blanks, based on material available to him at the time: you're over-scrutinizing this. 3 - ....this has nothing to do with deciding whether or not Maege Mormont is dead in the TV continuity: this is a clear cut case of "a later book contradicted earlier information which was only based on a vague assumption due to maiden names". We're assuming Maege Mormont is alive because "Lady of Bear Island" can just mean "acting Lady". Officially, I don't know how you jumped to the conclusion that Maege is dead: that isn't even up for discussion, she's not. I am not unsympathetic to your concerns, and yes, questions about how we should handle info from the Season 1 lineages book, and Maege's current status, amongst other things, are on the "giant list of stuff we'd ask the scriptwriters if we ever managed to get in contact with them". I'm sorry if it seems like I'm yelling; I'm actually just as frustrated about these inconsistencies as you are. --The Dragon Demands (talk) 04:39, May 14, 2015 (UTC) I get there are inconsistencies (TWOAIF can't throw stones on that front) so why create one just for the sake of TWOIAF rather than something more important or at very least from ASOIAF proper (and if that bothers people, wish those people would just stop watching the show to complain). Besides TWOIAF has its own wiki to deal with that stuff. I just meant by bringing up Maege Mormont's talk page because if I wanted say "Let's have her as dead and put "Is Maege Mormont alive?" on that writers questions list", you wrote that unless it was something from an episode (dialogue or a prop) or HBO Viewer's Guide or the writers, you can't infer something whether it's TV Maege Mormont being dead (she is) or inferring that the The Lineages and Histories of the Great Houses of the Seven Kingdoms was wrong (especially wrong about something that Elio & Linda changed years after the fact). And I don't even think HBO owns the copyright on TWOIAF so original characters to TWOIAF like Aelinor Penrose might not even be allowed on the show. And props have been cited for tons of articles (i.e. Silverhill and Robb never goes there in the books) whereas I blame TWOIAF (they should have stuck with Aelinor as a Targaryen and I take Bryan Cogman's random name grabbing as canon over Elio & Linda any day (heck, random name grabbing is how there's a page for Marlin Dormund (which I kind of wished the Telltale Game had used House Dormund at least in some way (maybe instead of House Glenmore), but that's besides the point). Just seems that inconsistencies means the wiki infers the way you prefer regardless of whether that's inconsistent to other pages. WaitingForYou (talk) 05:19, May 14, 2015 (UTC) The plan is: 1 - Consider book info to be correct until specifically stated otherwise 2 - Do leave a note on the article in question regarding the inconsistency, not just sweeping it under the rug 3 - Add it to the list of stuff we hope to eventually ask writers to confirm. I'm not asking you to forget that this prop said that Aelinor was his sister, we leave a note about that.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 16:07, May 14, 2015 (UTC) :I just think it's better (and more consistent with the standard you set up) the other way around where Aelinor and Aerys I are siblings, Aelinor Penrose is the note and the question to the writers "Is Aelinor a Penrose or still a Targaryen?" because it's just as easy to assume that the show were keep her a Targaryen by birth rather than a Penrose (a House never mentioned on the series so far). Maybe if it comes up in ASOIAF proper revisit it then. I know the articles are written in-universe or whatever the term it and at the top she refer to "being born" and "actually" which is nice that you consider the characters real, but it's just letters on a page and think the show's letters over TWOIAF. :Plus what if the writers don't read "The World of Ice and Fire" (lucky them). The opening credits have "Based on A Song of Ice and Fire by George R.R. Martin" and there have been this or that reference to his novellas A Tale of Dunk and Egg, The Princess and The Queen and The Rogue Prince but could anybody cite a reference (even just one) to something that was solely mention in TWOIAF à la the War of the Wombs or something like that. Something that's only been mentioned in TWOIAF. I can't. I don't even think B&W could even if they wanted to if TWOIAF's right are not owned by HBO (especially on material written by Elio & Linda) unlike ASOIAF proper (even material the show doesn't use on-screen) which HBO owns the rights to and therefore can't be used in the show, TWOIAF isn't a canonical source for the show (especially on things that it contradicts on the show). WaitingForYou (talk) 16:50, May 14, 2015 (UTC)